Well, by golly...

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Fawteen
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Well, by golly...

Postby Fawteen » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:00 pm

If none of the rest of ya are doing anything, at least I'm having fun. This retirement stuff is all right!

Bike lift is done and working great. Power-down PHD is waiting on finances to spring for a new hydraulic cylinder.

Now I'm working on another project that's been floating around in the back of my head for several years.

I have a self-contained hydraulic unit: Pump, reservoir and valve all in one. Came off a one-ton dump truck, designed to be driven by a PTO from the trans.

I've had it stashed in my shed(s) for at least 10 years, maybe more, and it was probably 20 years old when I paid $20 for it off Craigslist (or maybe it was Uncle Henry's). Didn't have a definite plan for it, other than I love dicking around with hydraulics.

Well, I've got a plan now (small dump trailer) and I dug it out of the back of the new shed and commenced looking it over. Pump works, valve works, tank doesn't leak. Fluid was N A S T Y ! ! !

Took it all apart, dumped the fluid/water/rust/mung out of the tank, flushed the four-piston pump with fresh fluid, I'll just need to make a couple of gaskets and it's good to go.

Made by Williams Machine and Tool, Model 40. I needed to know the rated RPM for the shaft and direction of rotation, and rated pressure would be nice to know.

Looked up WM&T on the web, and after a couple of false starts, found the right website, AND a PDF of the original owners manual, including parts breakdown etc. It's printing out as we speak. Or type, or whatever.

Plan is to power it with a little gear-reduction Honda engine I have. Not sure what the reduction is, but I also ordered a cheapie no-contact digital tach from Amazon, and I'm sure I can throttle that Honda back to sub-1000 rpm, which is the rated speed of the pump.

Engine, pump and cylinder are coming out of my stash, I'll just need to have some hoses made up. Next mission is to scrounge the steel for the frame and sub-frame. That might be tough, may actually have to fork over cash money for most of that.

Also need to spend some time meditating on how to make the box and what to make it out of. Initial thought is steel floor and wooden sides, but we'll have to scrounge around a little and see what's out there.

Being self contained, I can haul it behind TRM, and load it with the bucket on the Jap Deere. That'll be some handy for moving middlin-large piles of dirt or whatever.
What do you mean I can't do that?

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Johnson
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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Johnson » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:40 pm

Been a while since I was here.
This sounds like a good project to keep a eye on.

I wish I would have got a hold of a wet kit when I was working
on Big Trucks Even the Smaller PTO units they used on
old grain trucks is nice to get ahold of.

Have Fun on the project and Congrats on your Retirement.
Haywood.
One who has Imagination without learning has wings without feet.
JJK Haywood

NoahW
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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby NoahW » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:53 pm

Try THIS

Always glad we can help... :D :lol:

Noah W

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Gerrit
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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Gerrit » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:19 am

NoahW wrote:Always glad we can help... :D :lol:


Same here - fixed your click thingy. :mrgreen:

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Johnson
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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Johnson » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:18 pm

Good link. That is pretty cool.
One who has Imagination without learning has wings without feet.
JJK Haywood

curtludwig
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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby curtludwig » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:36 pm

I've actually been thinking about building a dump trailer myself. I've got an old snowmobile trailer to base it on. I was thinking something bigger than a garden tractor trailer but smaller than normal pull behind the truck size. Something I could load with my garden tractor loader should I ever finish such a thing.

Since mine would see infrequent use I was wondering if the dump function could be served with a porta-power...

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Fawteen
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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Fawteen » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:29 pm

curtludwig wrote:<snip>Since mine would see infrequent use I was wondering if the dump function could be served with a porta-power...


Don't see why not, in fact I considered that myself. Or even a "long tom" hydraulic jack like they use on engine cranes.

Got my cheapo laser tach today, and it says the gearbox on the Honda is turning about 650 RPM at WOT. I plan to use chain drive to the pump input, so I can gear it up a bit. The Honda has an 18 tooth sprocket on it, so if I put a 12 on the pump that should give me about 950 at the pump.

Also inventoried my stash of recycled steel and I think I can build that chassis and the subframe for the dump bed out of what I have laying around, only having to buy one stick of 2x2 square tubing. Still haven't come up with a cheap way to build the actual box, but I've got all winter to meditate on it.
What do you mean I can't do that?

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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Fawteen » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:37 pm

OK, progress report time.

Image

Got the main frame built out of scrap I had laying around. Long runners are 4x6 H beam from highway guard rail construction. Cross pieces are the old frame rails from The Red Menace which I replaced because they'd been tweaked.

Image

This is the pump/tank/valve assembly I mentioned in the first post, plumbed up to the hydraulic cylinder I hope to use. Just kludged together to make sure the pump works and the cylinder is usable. Spun the pump with an air ratchet to extend and retract the cylinder and check it up. Rod is pitted but straight and the seals don't leak, so I'm good to go.

Image

The axle was given to me and was cut and lengthened for a project that didn't pan out, so I re-cut it and shortened it to fit this project. Rims and tires are from an old K-car I got out of a junk yard years ago and have been swapped onto so many things I've lost count.

Image

The springs are a little lighter than I'dve liked, but they were free, and if the axle bottoms out under a heavy load, it's not the end of the world.

So far on this project, I'm out $20 for the pump and $25 for the axle u-bolt kit. I'll have to drop another $70 or so for steel for the dump frame, and a few bucks for the floor of the dump bed (I'm thinking pressure treated 2x6 right now, unless I come across something better) a few more for hydraulic hoses and a sprocket for the pump.

This should come in well under $300 cash outlay.
What do you mean I can't do that?

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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Fawteen » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:46 pm

Image

Little more progress today. Got the mount for the pump and motor figured out, and while I was up picking up steel for the dump frame, I grabbed a sprocket for the pump shaft. I'll need to slide the motor back a tad to tension the chain properly, but this was just to get things generally lined up and make sure it was gonna work. I'll cut the mounting plate off the cart it currently sits on and weld it to the tongue in front of the dump box. Gotta get the dump box roughed in before I can figure out the tongue length and place the pump assembly.

Image

Got the perimeter frame for the dump body tacked together, and decided how I'm going to go about hinging the back of it. Got the hinges tacked together and will tack the crossmember in and weld the fixed portion to the back of the trailer frame first thing tomorrow.
What do you mean I can't do that?

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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Fawteen » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:57 am

The server crash seems to have eaten an intermediate post, so I'll combine things to bring this project up to date.

Image

The main moving parts are all finished. The dump frame is hinged to the main frame and both hydraulic cylinder mounts are done.

Image

Image

The hinges consist of 1/2" x 3" flat stock with a 1" hole bored in them. Two pieces on the moving frame straddling one piece on the fixed frame. A piece of 1" round stock serves as the hinge pin. It's a loose enough fit that I didn't provide a way to grease them, I can just brush some wheel bearing grease on the pin as required.

Image

The fixed end of the cylinder is attached to the front of the main frame and spaced out far enough to allow clearance for the hose. This particular cylinder has the extend port tapped directly into the end of the housing. I'll put an elbow on it when I do the final plumbing, but wanted to make sure I had plenty of clearance.

The pin on this end is bored, cross-drilled and fit with a zerk for greasing.

Image

The dump frame end of the cylinder has a lubed bushing in the eye on the end of the rod so a greaseable pin wasn't required.

I'll do a temporary hookup of the pump today to make sure the geometry works out, but manually lifting the frame seems to indicate that she'll be alright, mate... :mrgreen:

Note: Many of the welds are just complete enough to hold things together. Once I've test-driven everything enough to prove the geometry and mechanics, I'll disassemble things to where I can get at everything and do the finish welding.
What do you mean I can't do that?

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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Fawteen » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:05 pm



The hydraulics do indeed work, altho the initial action is a bit abrupt. The weight of the finished box should alleviate that, or I may have to change the geometry a little, but for now I'm happy.

The other consideration is whether or not the 5.5 Honda will have the stones to lift a full load, but that we'll have to wait and see about. If it won't, I have a backup plan.

Image

After proving the hydraulics, I got the remaining crossmembers in the dump frame and the hitch installed.

There'll be a little hiatus now while I contemplate how to build the box and gather the materials.
What do you mean I can't do that?

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Red Dave
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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Red Dave » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:09 am

Will that lift your load with the cylinder pushing point so far toward the rear of the dump bed? It doesn't seem to give it much leverage.

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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Fawteen » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:00 pm

Red Dave wrote:Will that lift your load with the cylinder pushing point so far toward the rear of the dump bed? It doesn't seem to give it much leverage.


Odd you should mention that. I was a little concerned about it, and the folks over on Ron's board pointed it out as well. One of them suggested swapping ends on the cylinder and dump frame to get the lift point further from the hinge point, which would increase leverage. Dieselrider mentioned that, sHan mentioned the cylinder being too flat to have a starting point.

Image

Turns out both DR and sHan were right: Reversing the lift point and the fixed point GREATLY improved the action, and lowering the fixed end of the cylinder to increase the angle was necessary.

The first thing I did was take the dump frame off and swap it end for end. I cut the original hinge plates off, added a new crossmember in the appropriate spot and welded the hinges back on.

Then I duplicated the fixed mount that I used on the front frame member and welded it to the rear frame member in the same manner. Hooked up the pump and tried it and....Oh, shit. All it would do was try to spread the frame. So much for Plan B.

I jury-rigged an extension to lower the fixed end of the cylinder about 6" and tried it again. MUCH better. So I cut some new pieces and welded them in place, pinned the cylinder in and tried it again. Okay, but it was flexing the crap out of the back frame member due to the leverage from the dropped pivot point. Crap. Again.

Scrounged around and found some 1/2 x 1 flat stock and triangulated the lower pivot point back the the frame. Fired up the pump and VOILA!

What do you mean I can't do that?

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Red Dave
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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Red Dave » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:41 pm

Fawteen wrote:
Red Dave wrote:Will that lift your load with the cylinder pushing point so far toward the rear of the dump bed? It doesn't seem to give it much leverage.


Odd you should mention that. I was a little concerned about it, and the folks over on Ron's board pointed it out as well. One of them suggested swapping ends on the cylinder and dump frame to get the lift point further from the hinge point, which would increase leverage. Dieselrider mentioned that, sHan mentioned the cylinder being too flat to have a starting point.

Turns out both DR and sHan were right: Reversing the lift point and the fixed point GREATLY improved the action, and lowering the fixed end of the cylinder to increase the angle was necessary.

The first thing I did was take the dump frame off and swap it end for end. I cut the original hinge plates off, added a new crossmember in the appropriate spot and welded the hinges back on.

Then I duplicated the fixed mount that I used on the front frame member and welded it to the rear frame member in the same manner. Hooked up the pump and tried it and....Oh, shit. All it would do was try to spread the frame. So much for Plan B.

I jury-rigged an extension to lower the fixed end of the cylinder about 6" and tried it again. MUCH better. So I cut some new pieces and welded them in place, pinned the cylinder in and tried it again. Okay, but it was flexing the crap out of the back frame member due to the leverage from the dropped pivot point. Crap. Again.

Scrounged around and found some 1/2 x 1 flat stock and triangulated the lower pivot point back the the frame. Fired up the pump and VOILA!



Looks like it works purty slick. I've never seen one with the cylinder pushing to the front like that, but it works so it definitely proves the concept.

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Johnson
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Re: Well, by golly...

Postby Johnson » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:34 pm

Have you decided on the Color?
One who has Imagination without learning has wings without feet.
JJK Haywood


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